Auto Ignition

[oakbarn]

I am trying to set up my High Pressure Propane burners to be under the BCS control. Standard Heating valves are WC 11", where I use 10-30 PSI Regulators (Bayou Classic 30 psi adjustable). I would assume that I need a 24 vdc gas valve, an ignitor source (Like a Hot Plate Ignitor). Has anyone done this?

What valve did you use? Is there a High Pressure 24 vdc gas valve with a Thermocouple Safety?
What ignitor?
How did you implement any Safety?
How did you program the BCS?

[MrNatural]

I'm currently assembling my high pressure manifold using ASCO valves and plan to use HSI to light them. I have not seen any high pressure valves with pilot/ignition/flame sensor.
JonW will probably chime in on the ignition programing, and pretty sure his "safety" is user intervention.
Documentation here:
http://wiki.embeddedcc.com/index.php?ti ... o_Ignition

[BrianC]

I am trying to set up my High Pressure Propane burners to be under the BCS control. Standard Heating valves are WC 11", where I use 10-30 PSI Regulators (Bayou Classic 30 psi adjustable). I would assume that I need a 24 vdc gas valve, an ignitor source (Like a Hot Plate Ignitor). Has anyone done this?

What valve did you use? Is there a High Pressure 24 vdc gas valve with a Thermocouple Safety?
What ignitor?
How did you implement any Safety?
How did you program the BCS?

In my case (natural gas), I'm using the following ignitors: http://www.supplyhouse.com/Robertshaw-4 ... 12366000-p with 120V solenoids for gas.

For programming the BCS, it is pretty straight forward. I just wired all 3 ignitors together and have them setup to light anytime a burner needs to fire.

[oakbarn]

I have a 24 vdc gas valve and a Plate ignitor and I am ready to build my auto ignition set up for my Brew Kettle.
I think I understand what the sequence is and "how" it works.

autoignition.png (15.7 KiB) Viewed 6570 times

When ever I call for the Out 2 (BK Gas Valve) to be ASSERTED, the BK Ignitor will come on for 3 seconds and then remain on while the BK Gas Valve opens for 7 Seconds. After this time, the BK Ignigtor will shut off and the BK Gas Valve will remain Open as long as the Process calls for it

I have a Flame Detector that I would like to incorporate as a "safety" so that it must detect a flame for the BK Gas Valve to be Open. The Flame Detector has NO and NC contacts along with a common so I could run the 5 vdc from the BCS to a DIN and use ladder logic.

Is there a way to set up the "safety".

[JonW]

When ever I call for the Out 2 (BK Gas Valve) to be ASSERTED, the BK Ignitor will come on for 3 seconds and then remain on while the BK Gas Valve opens for 7 Seconds. After this time, the BK Ignigtor will shut off and the BK Gas Valve will remain Open as long as the Process calls for it

I have a Flame Detector that I would like to incorporate as a "safety" so that it must detect a flame for the BK Gas Valve to be Open. The Flame Detector has NO and NC contacts along with a common so I could run the 5 vdc from the BCS to a DIN and use ladder logic.

Is there a way to set up the "safety".

This is a really good question and something I've wrestled with before as well. The only way that I was able to come up with doing it was to have 3 states used for the heating option. One state started the ignition and then after a few seconds, moved to a second state to maintain ignition. In the second state there was an exit condition that would detect if there was no flame present and if not, it would momentarily jump to the third state which did not have the gas valve asserted, then jump back to the first state. This 3rd state was necessary to trigger the valve off, then on again once it got back to state one. This would work, but I just didn't like how messy it was and in some of my processes I didn't have enough extra states. The end result was that I did not implement the flame detectors (really only one detector as I was just testing how it would work).

I think to do this right, it needs to be included into the whole auto-ignition piece. I'm thinking if we could specify a detector input at the auto-ignition setup, then that input could be monitored starting at the expiration of the ignition time. If the input changes state, then it would re-trigger the ignition.

I have to say though that after messing with the detector that I never pursued it any further as my system has run rock solid using the igniter setup just the way it is. When I used spark igniters I used to have some failed ignitions, but after moving the the hot surface igniters I never do.

[oakbarn]

I have thought of the Multiple States as well, but since they are limited, I did not do that. I may set up Ladder Logic to give a Visual Alarm if my Flame Decector is Off and the Gas Valve on. I have a rotating light as a normal Alarm and I could use for that or get another one.

It would be nice if there was a DIN Option on the Auto Ignition Sequence where the DIN must be "closed" for the Trigger to remain ASSERTED after the Ignition Time or it simply starts the Auto Ignition Sequence again.

Logic:

BCS calls for Trigger
Igniter ASSERTED for Igniter Time
Igniter ASSERTED and Trigger Asserted for Ignition Time
If DIN # (Flame Dectector) ASSERTED and Trigger ASSERTED
then Igniter Off
else
Call for Trigger.
End If

Of course you would also need to have the logic as it is now when no DIN # is selected.

[Interlope]

Hi everyone,

I resurect this topic as I'm about to get a BCS462, which I'd like to become my monitoring and control panel for my upcoming nano.
It'll be an all gas fired rig with three vessels (HLT, MT, BK) and two pumps.

I understand I can easily pilot the ignition of my jet burners by placing a gas solenoid valve before the inlet of the burner, using a hot plate ignition (or sparking?) device.
But in case the flame is bown out by wind or not even lit due to an ignition failure, I really don't know how to set a simple and effective flame failure device..

Has anyone found a way to add some safety to the auto ignition function, without using all the "state slots" available ?

As you may have noticed, English is not my native Tongue, nor is electronic engineering... Please consider writing in plain simple english and not sparing any details or explanations !
Thanks !

Max

[JonW]

If you are that concerned with building in the safety lockout/re-ignition features, then you need to buy gas valves that include that functionality. Many of the Honeywell valves do this. Think of it this way - the BCS is like the thermostat for your home furnace - it tells the gas system when heat is needed, but the ultimate safety feature for valve shutoff/re-ignition lies with the gas valve system - not the furnace thermostat (or the BCS).

I'm now on my second BCS automated brew rig where I didn't worry about his functionality. My basic view is that brewing is a hands-on activity that requires you to be present when your system is running. Because of that, you know when you have a flame-out situation and can activate the igniter to relight the burners. With properly shielded burners, a flameout situation would rarely if ever occur. I use solenoid valves from Valves4Projects on ebay and the Honeywell Glowfly hot surface igniters. The BCS handles the ignition task fine for this setup.

Since you mentioned this is for a nano, I assume you mean a commercial brewery. In that case, I would definitely suggest you use the higher end Honeywell (or other manufacturer) gas valves that include the valve, igniter, rectifier and control board to perform all the safety check functions.

[Interlope]

Thanks Jon,
You're right, I'm building this nano for a commercial purpose. Not yet though, it's gonna take a while to build it, get accointed to it, and try then fully master the recipes on this particular equipment. But even if it's unnecessary for the moment (I'll be brewig inside, so no wind), I'd rather go by the book. And I also completely agree with your "hands on" approach of the brewing process, I don't want to push a button and leave..!

I think I came accross (online) some solenoid valves like you're describing, with built in ignition and detection features, but I'm not sure ; do the Smart valves series by Honeywell correspond to this description?
I find it very hard to source something like this in France (or European Union), none of the people I asked so far have heard of something like this... If you do know an other brand or a specific model, please tell me !

Furthermore, I'm not completely sure of the way they work :
If the BCS triggers the "Smartvalve" (or equivalent), does it ignite by itlself and then monitors the flame presence, than close the valve if non is detected ?

Max

[JonW]

If the BCS triggers the "Smartvalve" (or equivalent), does it ignite by itlself and then monitors the flame presence, than close the valve if non is detected ?

Yes, that is how they work.

Here's a good video that explains it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RC5q55YYJpA

You should be able to get the equipment from places that sell it for furnaces. The only difference is you're going to mount it up to a different style burner. You also need to ensure that you can protect all the components from boilovers and spills. There are different models based on voltage requirements, fuel type, fuel pressure, etc.