integration mounting pics?

Discussion of the physical aspects
HarvInSTL
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Re: integration mounting pics?

Post by HarvInSTL »

bsfixit wrote:http://forum.embeddedcontrolconcepts.co ... p?f=4&t=33

that thread was 240 but all his pictures are missing
I sent him a PM. Hopefully his pictures will come back online.
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bsfixit
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Re: integration mounting pics?

Post by bsfixit »

did you try the link in his post? maybe the pictures are still there. I know he used d2425 solid state relays mounted in a metal box to dissipate the heat
HarvInSTL
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Re: integration mounting pics?

Post by HarvInSTL »

bsfixit wrote:did you try the link in his post? maybe the pictures are still there. I know he used d2425 solid state relays mounted in a metal box to dissipate the heat
Yep, the link didn't work. And from what I can tell there is nothing on that website any more.

I'm mainly interested in the wiring from the circuit break to the metal box. I've got two or three ideas of how to wire this, but I was interested in seeing pictures of what others using 240v had come up with.
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bsfixit
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Re: integration mounting pics?

Post by bsfixit »

you need to use 2 110 sources , one A phase and one B phase. If you take your breaker panel cover off you can see something like an electric dryer breaker. it has two wires coming out of one breaker. one red and one black . I am pretty sure you run the red and black wires (A and B phase) into a junction box that combines the two to make 240. Then from there a wire of thick enough gauge to carry 240 @ 25 amps. ( do not exceed 80% of the capacity of the wiring and SSR) this goes into one side of the
SSR then, the same gauge wire out the other side of the SSR to the heater element. the other terminal on the heater element takes a neutral wire that goes back to the panel.
and you need some kind of ground on the heater element. (green wire) .I used a copper plate with a hole cut in the middle for the element. Then soldered the ground wire to the copper plate. You are supposed to use a ground fault interrupt circuit. GFCI . I have never seen a 240 v GFCI but they do make a 240 volt GFCI breaker but they are expensive. From what
I remember from the pictures I did not see any GFCI protection in his setup, at least not in the pictures. I am not sure of other configurations of GFCI but I can call my buddy who is a journeyman electrician tomorrow. Find out what he says .
I hope that helps you
HarvInSTL
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Re: integration mounting pics?

Post by HarvInSTL »

I have a hole drilled in the bottom skirt of each keg and the ground for each element will terminate there.

To my knowledge a 240v element doesn't use a neutral connection, just the two hots.

Ok, here is what I had a chance to sketch up a couple days ago. I want to preface this by saying that I am not an electrician and I plan on having an electrician review my work before anything is turned on/plugged in or used.

The Neutral Bus, 3 pole distribution block, SPST's, DPST's and SSR's will all be housed in a junction box. The pumps and kettles will plug into the control box via L6-30 (elements) and L5-15 (pumps) twist lock receptacles and plugs. These are not in the diagram, but will be soon.

The control box will plug into the 14-50 receptacle via a 14-50 plug. And the 14-50 receptacle will be wired to the 50A GFCI breaker. I opted against separate breakers for the elements and 110 stuff because this will be connected less than 10 feet from my load center and the added cost didn't seem needed to save walking an extra 4 feet to kill power if needed. If anyone can provide a compelling argument against this I will more than consider it.

Image

Now what has been pointed out to me is that if I want to use my system as in my diagram, I would need to use 6# wire through out because that is what the GFCI breaker is rated at. I'm looking for an alternative to that. So it appears that I will have to install a sub panel w/ 2 30A breakers and a 15A breaker for the 110v stuff. Any other options?
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bsfixit
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Re: integration mounting pics?

Post by bsfixit »

I do not claim to be an electrician either, my experience over my career, is as an master ASE auto tech.I have wired in two transfer switches for my two home backup generators and did my brewery project, added a few lines here and there. Other basic home electrical repair.
I have never seen a 240 v heater element but I assume they are the same as 110v as far as how many terminals they have.(they may have 3 one for red one for black and one for white(neutral). OR they may have only 2 one for the combined 240 and one for Neutral (white) And the green ground grounds the base of the element or the SS pot itself. So if thats the case. you cannot use the red and black the way you have them wired in your diagram. you will always be getting 110v to the elements the way are they are wired. you can either use the neutral (white not green) wire to go through the SSRs but you should use both black and red wires. (hot) I think that is the proper way to run the hots (red and black) They both need to go through the SSR in order for the controller to open and close the SSR , turning on and off the elements. #6 wire sounds right. but only on the things that are running 240. 30 amps for 110v would need #10 wire I believe 20 amp would need #12 and 15 amp would need #14 or #16 sized wire. I will edit this as I go back and look at your diagram again.
If you give me your email address (PM) I can get you into contact with a retired electrician, he is on the Northern Brewer forum. He is always willing to talk to anyone about how things are supposed to be. If you are a member of northern brewer I can PM you his screen name, and he will set you on the right path.
I have to look again at what you are doing with the 30 amps and 15 amps. Those pumps only pull 1-2 amps at best, each.
Brett
Last edited by bsfixit on Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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bsfixit
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Re: integration mounting pics?

Post by bsfixit »

your NEMA 14-50 plugs doesnt show a neutral . your neutral seems to appear out of the 3 point dist block. Like you are using your ground as the neutral ,same thing I know but
it may need to have its own separate neutral and ground wires in order for the GFCI to work properly. Green or ground goes into the plugs and neutral goes out. Pretty sure you want to run 4 wire line. red, black, neutral and ground. At least thats my thinking. I know it can be done the way you have it . but a real electrician should consult you on that. PM me for that contact info for that guy on NB He would be glad to help you .
P-J
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Re: integration mounting pics?

Post by P-J »

bsfixit wrote: ~~~ PM me for that contact info for that guy on NB He would be glad to help you .
Brett,
As you see, I got logged in and yes - I'd be glad to help.
HarvInSTL, I do have a few basic problems with your planned wiring setup. The first being it will not work as it is setup in the wiring diagram. The GFCI will trip and not allow you to power up if there is any path to earth independent of your power source.

How can I help.

P-J
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bsfixit
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Re: integration mounting pics?

Post by bsfixit »

I thought there would be a problem with the GFCI .. Thanks for Joining Paul, I know you can help many people in here. :D
Hopefully that member should be online later today.
I have to go plant a palm tree, so take it easy and welcome to the forum
Brett
HarvInSTL
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Re: integration mounting pics?

Post by HarvInSTL »

P-J/Brett,

Thank you for your help!

What I am trying to do is have my control panel/box portable. Hence the reason for the 14-50R. The goal is to have a 6/12 load center connected to that 14-50R via a 50A GFCI breaker in the main panel. From there I will have 2 30A double pole breakers in the load center, one for each 240v element. As well there would be a 15A 120v single pole breaker for the pumps.

I guess I need to start first in the new diagram with connecting the 6/3 romex from the 50A GFCI to the 14-50R. Then from there I will need to wire a 14-50P that connects to the lugs in the load center.

I also think part of my problem is understanding when/where the neutral/ground terminate after leaving the main panel. (if they even do).

Or would I be better off just connecting the load center via a standard douple pole 50A breaker in the main panel and using 30A GFCI's in the load center?

I've been told the following, just not sure why I can't wrap my head around it.

A reminder that for sub-panels, ground and neutral should remain separate.
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