BCS-462 wiring for relay and ball valves

Discussion of the physical aspects
Timbrew
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Re: BCS-462 wiring for relay and ball valves

Post by Timbrew »

Just to be clear (for others who come across this), this may be working fine for you, but is not a configuration that many have had success with. Being that the pumps are a centrifugal type head and somewhat slow speed, your range of adjustment is going to be very small and definitely not linear. Additionally, since the pumps are magnetically coupled you will run a much higher risk of decoupling at a slower speed. Pump lift variations, flow restrictions, wort viscosity, etc. are all going to become variables in your success to throttle the pump.

Tim - have you recorded your flow rates at various duty cycles? What is the effective range of duty cycles that you've been successful with? Knowing your operating parameters could give others a starting point if they want to experiment with this.
Thanks for these comments. Yes, definitely not linear... in any case and more especially as open ball valves can permit syphoning or simple gravitational flows.

I haven’t done any controlled flow tests. My approach has been somewhat trial and error to avoid what would inevitably be complex mathematics. Initially I worked up pump d/c schemes for relatively slow fly sparging that wouldn’t require any manual restriction of non-automated valves (say to regulate flow rate of sparge water into the MLT or outflow from MLT to BK), and that that would work with my elec ball valves under On or Off direct control. I did a few trials with plain water to begin with and was able to develop a repeatable and effective process. My pump duty cycles range considerably from just 3% pulses, upto 75/80% and largely depend on the relative levels of liquids in HLT, MLT and BK. The latter depends on whether I’m doing a 5 gallon or 10 gallon batch. For example, with a 10 gallon batch toward the end of the lauter I’m effectively draining “uphill" from my mash tun to the kettle, so have to use a 15-20% d/c to maintain a slow enough flow rate. Overall, a surprise finding was that even small changes (say between 3% and 10%) significantly affect the flow. Also, I’ve been successfully using 75% d/c of both HLT and MLT pumps during the HERMS mash cycle (to get a decent heat transfer) and 5-10% d/c in transferring chilled wort through my plate heat exchanger to the fermenter to keep the transfer speed down and ensure a perfect and rapid temp drop from BK temp to ca. 25C.

I had indeed realized that factors such as wort viscosity, sediment and particles (also temperature and pump location) could easily create differences in outcomes, but further tests including tweaks to my all-water trials during several live brewing processes, have yielded excellent and repeatable results. I screen out any particles large enough to restrict pumps and viscosity seems to have little effect. My pumps are all in fixed locations approx 24 inches below my kegs.

A final FYI, although I began using and achieving a fully balanced fly sparge, in the end I’ve opted for a batch-continous lauter process. This begins with a fly sparge with given water volume, and ends with [almost] draining my MLT to attain my desired boil volume (last runnings around 1.010). Am getting high (>80%) mash efficiencies.

Overall, therefore, I've found that pump duty cycling is a really useful functionality that overcomes random fiddling with manual valves and also takes account of the On or OFF only position allowed by electric values.
Ihop2many
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Re: BCS-462 wiring for relay and ball valves

Post by Ihop2many »

There's some confusing info in your post. You are asking about outputs 10-15, but yet you list PID data that you are using.
My apologies for causing confusion, I should have provided a reference in my post.
I was referring to Timbrew's block diagram and his use of o/p 10-15 to control the valves. For my configuration I am using o/p 0 which you have explained I should not be using, and as I suspected was overly complicated for a simple on/on application.

I have read & researched a lot of pages on the forum & Wiki but have yet to find a path that would match my quest, many thanks for the support.

How do I set conditions to use o/p 10-15: ladder logic?
I'm looking to do something pretty straightforward: turn an o/p on when my BK temp probe gets to 170 deg and turn it off when the temp gets below 150 or even 170 if that's simpler. This o/p will control an extraction fan.

Best regards,
JonW
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Re: BCS-462 wiring for relay and ball valves

Post by JonW »

Ladder logic doesn't use temp probe values to turn on and off, so you would need to do this via a process.

Additionally, normally only outputs 0-7 are temperature controlled outputs, but you can simulate temperature controlled output on the other outputs (9-17) by using multiple states and exit conditions.

I would use a process and name it something like "Extraction Fan". Then use two states to control the on and off switching and monitoring of temps. On "State 0", name it "Fan Off" and don't set any outputs to be on within that state. Go to the exit condition area and set an exit condition to use the BK temp probe with condition >= 170 and a "Next State" exit condition to jump to "State 1". Name State 1 "Fan On" and check the output that has the fan on it so it will be on while in State 1. Then set an exit condition again using the BK temp probe and condition of <= 150 with an exit to State 0.

While this process is running, it will then go to state 1 when the BK temp reaches 170 and will continue on until the BK temp then gets back down to 150, at which point it will jump back to State 0 and wait for the temperature to rise again.

I'm assuming this is something you want running during brew day while your BK process is running so that you don't have vapor accumulation. If you could use one of the configurable outputs (0-7), you could use hysteresis and set the output as a "cool" type output and then just set your temperature value for when it is to come on. Doing it this way would be much simpler and wouldn't require an extra process to run.
JonW
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Re: BCS-462 wiring for relay and ball valves

Post by JonW »

Ihop2many - can you also tell me what kind of relays you are using?
BrunDog
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Re: BCS-462 wiring for relay and ball valves

Post by BrunDog »

I know I am not adding value in this thread with this comment... but...

What is the value of electric ball valves exactly? I would like to add some, but if they are not proportional (aka big $$$) then I am not sure the point. I suppose switching pump inputs makes sense, but outputs still require manual tuning if you are trying to set flow rates (for me, that's mash recirc, sparge inflow, sparge outflow).

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled program...

-BD
Ihop2many
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Re: BCS-462 wiring for relay and ball valves

Post by Ihop2many »

If you could use one of the configurable outputs (0-7), you could use hysteresis and set the output as a "cool" type output and then just set your temperature value for when it is to come on. Doing it this way would be much simpler and wouldn't require an extra process to run.
I actually began the journey using hysteresis but didn't get the expected result, probably a programming error on my part so I'll try that again.
- can you also tell me what kind of relays you are using?
I'm using 5V SSRs that can switch up to 2A, these would only be used for the extraction fan and pumps.

JonW: Your response was highly appreciated
JonW
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Re: BCS-462 wiring for relay and ball valves

Post by JonW »

Ihop2many wrote:I'm using 5V SSRs that can switch up to 2A, these would only be used for the extraction fan and pumps.

JonW: Your response was highly appreciated
I'm looking for specific manufacturer/model if you could provide it.

Always here to help!
Ihop2many
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Re: BCS-462 wiring for relay and ball valves

Post by Ihop2many »

I'm looking for specific manufacturer/model if you could provide it.
Omron G3MB-202P purchased on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/351442850976

The hysteresis mode you suggested works fine. I'm trying to figure out why it didn't work previously :roll:
JonW
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Re: BCS-462 wiring for relay and ball valves

Post by JonW »

BrunDog wrote:What is the value of electric ball valves exactly?
For my setup, the electric ball valves control the output side of the pump. I have manual valves located at the kettle return to adjust flow rates.

HLT return selects between either HLT recirc or the MLT (when fly sparging).
MLT return selects between either MLT recirc or the BK (when fly sparging).
BK return selects between either BK recirc or the BK chiller + recirc.
BrunDog
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Re: BCS-462 wiring for relay and ball valves

Post by BrunDog »

Ya I suppose I should think about how to implement. I have only a two vessel system (documented here: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=542899)

-BD
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