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Re: Pre-planning stages of BCS based homebrewery

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:05 pm
by oakbarn
I have manual lighted switches in line to the Pumps. I hooked it up that way because I already had the wires run in the wall before I got the BCS and it was just easier. I have found that I use the manual controls because it is easier for me and am glad I have them. It could also be I was used to doing it manually so I was comfortable with it. I have 4 pumps and do have them controlled by the BCS as John does, and as I get more comfortable with using the UI, I might not use the "manual" switches as much. On the other hand, I am adding automatic valves and if I run out of Outs, I can always switch the Pumps back to only "manual" control. I do like the fact that when a switch is on, the button is illuminated. I have the switchs from aubrins and they are color coded to my pumps.

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_ ... cts_id=223

I have made a manifold with valves so that I do not move any hoses with the exception of the last Wort Out of my Duda Diesel HE. I pump hot water through the HE from my HLT for the last hour of boil. When I am ready to whillpool, I move it from the HLT to the BK. Once I get to pitching temp, I move it to the fermentor. Having the valves in the correct direction is more important than the pumps control for me as I am always trying to figure out the valve configuration.


I also have the manifold set up so I can clean the MLT while I am in the Boil.

If I was starting again, I would add the illuminated switches because of the ease of control and "knowing" that a pump has power is a great help, but the are not necessary.

Re: Pre-planning stages of BCS based homebrewery

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:12 pm
by pngaudioguy
Thanks to both of you for the responses. That helps to clarify how the web interface buttons work, JonW. Every time I try to access the demo BCS it's offline, so I don't know if that's normal or something up with my mediocre internet. Both your answers have shed light on aspects, and introduced further ponderings at the same time. Is there a thread on here with how you've got your system wired up, JonW?

As I was thinking about the pros and cons some more I came across this situation. Let's hypothetically say I have a contactor as a failsafe on my heating elements. But I've chosen to leave both switches in the "Auto" position so that the BCS will control them as the various processes come up. In order to function, both contactors are passing electricity on the high current leg because of a closed circuit on the control leg. Therefore, they might as well not even be there... If something goes haywire, am I going to reach for an element selector knob to turn hoping it's the right one, or hit the big mushroom button that will definitely disconnect everything except the BCS itself?

So now I'm second guessing my compulsive desire to have that second layer. I mean, it's just an added cost that will typically be effectively bypassed... Also, in light of a better understanding of the web interface, I'm questioning the need for pump switches.

Even if I don't have selectors, I know for sure that I want "circuit on" indicators.

Re: Pre-planning stages of BCS based homebrewery

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:33 am
by oakbarn
Even when I used the Web Interface, my switch lights up. I do very much depend on the illuminated switch to tell me a pump is on.
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_ ... cts_id=223

If you do not want a switch, they also sell just panel lights:

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_ ... cts_id=248

Re: Pre-planning stages of BCS based homebrewery

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:19 am
by pngaudioguy
As the thread title indicates, I'm in the pre-planning stages here, and doing tons of reading along the way. I read an interesting post by Kal of the well known electric brewery website talking through some of his design decisions the other night. It got me to thinking in depth about my needs and wants for the system, and also things that I know I neither need nor want.

Needs/Wants:
Maintain HLT temp accurately, so that the recirculation of the HERMS yields a constant mash temperature.
Have the option of being able to do step mashes if desired, bring mash to mashout temp as needed.
Create a vigorous enough boil to achieve ~1.25-1.5 gal/hr boiloff rate.
Be able to control pumps independently for various stages.
Stable, reliable control system.

For me, it's not desired to automate the system completely - for now I brew as a hobby, for which a big part of the fun is the interactive process. I'm never going to add motorized valves or a full tubing system for that reason. Even in the relatively short time I've been a member of this forum, I've seen several posts where an output died, or perhaps an input died or whatever. Granted, many of these can be traced back to user error. I'm also human and prone to make the occasional error, so there's nothing to say I won't do something similar at some point. For now, I can just buy a new BCS or send it back for repair or whatever. But, again, since I started looking at the device, it's already been sold to a new owner. What happens if 10 years down the road the BCS is no longer in production and I fry mine? Suddenly I've got a very expensive brewing system based on an obsolete piece of hardware. I have to research what's available and possibly redo a bunch of wiring to make my system work with whatever this new device ends up being.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I am leaning back towards the standard "industrial controls" option for my rig. Panel mounted DIN-cutout PID's, selectors, and LED's with a timer and alarm. Set the temperature for the mash and turn it on. Push a button a few times to get to a new setpoint, and go. If something dies, there are readily available components to replace it. Maybe not the same brand, but the same physical format.

Without using automation as a selling point (since it's not for my workflow), why should I go with the BCS instead? How will the BCS help me brew better beer than a manual panel? Thanks in advance for your thoughts,

pngaudioguy

Re: Pre-planning stages of BCS based homebrewery

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:12 am
by oakbarn
I have the BCS 462 so any # of Outs refer to that model.

Could you do it with Standard Controls? Yes. But they are independent of each other and there is no sequence. I had individual PIDs first before I had the BCS.

The BCS will do everything you want to do and more. The BCS is not an Automated System as much as a having 8 PIDS that you can set in sequence. From your want list, the BCS is want you want. Doing a Step Mash is quite easy with the BCS. With a Standard control PID, not as easy.


You will eventually want some method to control the Fermentation Temps (and the ability to Step that up and Down) as well. The BCS does a great job at that as well.

On another note: The BCS is likely less expensive than individual PIDS in the long run.

The ability to have your process displayed on the screen is fantastic. My brew buddies were sceptical of a "computer" system but it worked so well the first time we brewed, they now would not go back.

And ver 4.0 is 1000% better on the Main Control Panel.

Have you read the little blog item at Brewers Hardware about automation? This was written before they "owned" the BCS. It is quite good about semi-automation.

Since you have planned so much, I think that you will eventually want the control a BCS gives you. I know that I looked into it and decided to go the Standard PID route, but I now have two BCSs. One for Brewing and one I am in the Process of setting up in my fermentation room. The Regular PIDs did work, but were a PITA when I wanted to change a Temp. The Alarm and Timer functions also are very useful!

Re: Pre-planning stages of BCS based homebrewery

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:53 am
by Broph
I've been using my BCS-460 for over 5 years now... before that a friend loaned me a PID box that he built. I am continually amazed that I've been using the BCS this long and that with firmware updates it keeps going in a good direction... One of the strengths to me for the BCS is the ability to monitor and control my equipment when ramping up for or during a brewsession even when I can't be in the garage using a computer or smart phone.... Another thing I like most about the BCS is the data logging/graphing. Having Brewer's Hardware supporting the BCS is something also that shouldn't be overlooked.

Re: Pre-planning stages of BCS based homebrewery

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:58 pm
by pngaudioguy
I've interspersed my thoughts below in a different color. I would have responded to both your thoughts at once, but apparently multi-quote doesn't exist on this forum...
oakbarn wrote:I have the BCS 462 so any # of Outs refer to that model.

Could you do it with Standard Controls? Yes. But they are independent of each other and there is no sequence. I had individual PIDs first before I had the BCS.

When would I need to sequence the outputs in a typical brew day, if I'm not automating other components of the system?

The BCS will do everything you want to do and more. The BCS is not an Automated System as much as a having 8 PIDS that you can set in sequence. From your want list, the BCS is want you want. Doing a Step Mash is quite easy with the BCS. With a Standard control PID, not as easy.

With my 50A circuit limitation and 40A draw per element, there's not a whole lot of sequencing I can do. I don't need more than 2 PID outputs, so whether I have 2, 4 or 8 is irrelevant if I'm only going to use 2, right?

You will eventually want some method to control the Fermentation Temps (and the ability to Step that up and Down) as well. The BCS does a great job at that as well.

You are absolutely right - ultimately I would like to have managed fermentation temps, including stepped at specific times. The BCS or whatever other computerized candidate is available at that time would make a lot of sense. You mentioned later on that you now have 2 BCS devices. One for brewing, one for fermenting. I think that having a dedicated separate fermentation controller is going to be the way to go when I get to that point, anyway, so isn't a factor for the brewing rig considerations.

On another note: The BCS is likely less expensive than individual PIDS in the long run.

My calculation for a single brew rig with 3 PID's and a timer works out to ~$200 less than my BCS-460 system calculation. At $46.50 each direct from AuberIns, you'd have to buy 4 more PID's (7 total) to equal the cost of a BCS-460, and 6 more (9 total) to hit the cost of a BCS-462.

The ability to have your process displayed on the screen is fantastic. My brew buddies were sceptical of a "computer" system but it worked so well the first time we brewed, they now would not go back.

And ver 4.0 is 1000% better on the Main Control Panel.

The on screen display definitely has the bling factor, and would be very cool. I don't doubt that the firmware continues to improve, and that's definitely a good sign.

Have you read the little blog item at Brewers Hardware about automation? This was written before they "owned" the BCS. It is quite good about semi-automation.

I had not previously read that page, but just went and looked it up. Thanks for the link.

Since you have planned so much, I think that you will eventually want the control a BCS gives you. I know that I looked into it and decided to go the Standard PID route, but I now have two BCSs. One for Brewing and one I am in the Process of setting up in my fermentation room. The Regular PIDs did work, but were a PITA when I wanted to change a Temp. The Alarm and Timer functions also are very useful!

I do think I'll end up with a BCS for fermentation eventually in addition to whichever way I go on my brew system. How were the PID's a PITA to change temp? You push the up button until it hits your new desired setpoint. So I have to press a button 20 times to change 20 degrees instead of clicking on a new process or stage... Not a deal breaker for me. You can also very easily do alarm and timer functions. AuberIns makes a new "Brewing Timer" in standard 1/16 DIN format that has up to 9 events you can program. Set the primary boil time and each of up to 8 additional hops timers. It triggers an alarm circuit for the number of seconds you select at the end of each segment, no external relay required. http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_ ... cts_id=356

Re: Pre-planning stages of BCS based homebrewery

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:15 pm
by pngaudioguy
Broph wrote:I've been using my BCS-460 for over 5 years now... before that a friend loaned me a PID box that he built. I am continually amazed that I've been using the BCS this long and that with firmware updates it keeps going in a good direction... One of the strengths to me for the BCS is the ability to monitor and control my equipment when ramping up for or during a brewsession even when I can't be in the garage using a computer or smart phone.... Another thing I like most about the BCS is the data logging/graphing. Having Brewer's Hardware supporting the BCS is something also that shouldn't be overlooked.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to imply that the BCS-460 or 462 lack anything in stability, or that it's headed in a good direction. I'm trying to decide if it's really the right choice for me personally.

For me brewing ends up being somewhat of a cathartic activity, in that my wife knows I'm not available to do other things for the duration of the brewing session to prevent screwing up the beer. Being able to remotely adjust things might actually be a bad thing on that front.

Data logging is very cool. As a numbers obsessed person, that's very attractive. How will it help me make better beer, though? If I already know that a PID is going to hold a constant 148 degree mash, will seeing the log that it did make my beer better? Or will knowing that it took 10 minutes instead of 15 to ramp from the 120 protein rest to the 148 saccharification rest on a stepped mash change my beer if I start the sach. timer after it hits 148?

Again - I'm not knocking the BCS. It's really cool, and I want to "need" it. But as I analyze my personal brewing style and needs, I'm having a hard time justifying it.

Re: Pre-planning stages of BCS based homebrewery

Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:09 pm
by oakbarn
The PIDs were a Pita to change because I had them so high out of the way (and visible above what was being controlled). If I had them lower they would have been easier to change (but I had to read the instructions as I always forgot which button to press and ended up in the SETUP more than once).

I have two BCS because of the number of things I want to control with temperature. I have three freezers, a kegerator, a cold room with Cool Bot and window AC. That is five items. Since I do lagers, the rest is important and predictable with the BCS.

On the Brew side, I use all 8 Temp probes although not all are PID controlled. I do monitor the Mash in three spots (Mash Tun Body, Herms Inlet and Herms Outlet). I also monitor my cooling water for theDuda Diesel Wort Chilller.

Having the Data Log lets me know what I did.

Besides being way cool, the BCS is easy to set up your brew day and simply follow the sequence you programmed.

I have processes for filling my kettles (I used to get distracted and you know that brewing is a wet process. Overflow a kettle for 5 minutes and it is a very wet process).
A Process for Mash and Sparge
A Process for Boil and Hop Additions
A process for whirlpoolings and chilling
A Process for cleaning
A Process for my Processes (another nice thing about having one for Brewing and One for Fermentation).


I found that my brew day is a lot less crisis mangement and also shorter as I am reminded to "clean" while doing other things.

As I said, I had several PIDs and they did work, but not anywhere as well. What did I do on that last Mash? What was the Setpoint on the Herms Water Bath with this Beer? Did I add the Hops at the right time?

These are documented with the BCS and not with the PIDs. This is even more critical with fermentation if you want to review you brew session.


With the BCS you have:
Predictable and Better Contol of the PIDs.
DataLogging
Flow on the Brew Day
Flow durning Fermentation.
Graphical Inteface of your Brew Process
Intergrated Timers
Alarm (This is worth a lot more than you would think).
Able to Store and reteive different Beers (Backup or the Utility)
This forum for help.

With a PID you have control of one Item independently of any other PIDs. They are not able to be programmed except to hold a temerature generally. Other than the Gauge, there is no feedback and there is no record.

They are semi cool. The BCS is way cooler (He who has the most toys wins!).


A year from now, you wll buy the BCS becuase it will be on your mind if you go the PID route! That what happened to me. So I had the expense of the PIDs then the expense of the BCS. I gave my PIDs to a friend in another state in exchange for Fly Fishing, so not a total loss.

Re: Pre-planning stages of BCS based homebrewery

Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:56 pm
by oakbarn
pngaudioguy wrote:

My calculation for a single brew rig with 3 PID's and a timer works out to ~$200 less than my BCS-460 system calculation. At $46.50 each direct from AuberIns, you'd have to buy 4 more PID's (7 total) to equal the cost of a BCS-460, and 6 more (9 total) to hit the cost of a BCS-462.

[/quote]

The BCS 460 is $179, the 462 is $279. You will need to buy 4 PIDs for the BCS 460 and 6 PIDs for the BCS 462 to break even. You will still likely need SSRs for the Aubrins PIDs to control a heating source so that is a wash. You would likely need an enclosure for either the BCS or PIDs.

3 PIDs will cost you $139. The Timer ?. The BCS is only $40 more less the cost of the Timer, not $200.