RIM's element burning

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bergerrings
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Re: RIM's element burning

Post by bergerrings »

This is actually my post....I was setting up a friends account and was obviously still logged in as him...my bad.

Sorry for the confusion!

But yes, if someone could please help that would be awesome. I have spent too much money on changing this whole thing to a rims for it to not work.
bergerrings
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Re: RIM's element burning

Post by bergerrings »

I have just recently changed my brewing setup from a HERM system to a RIM system and disaster has stuck....my RIMS element chars up virtually immediatly and burns the wort!
I thought I had done everything correctly, and as far as I could tell my system is a fairly typical RIMS but for the life of me I cannot figure out why it isn't working.
My RIMS setup is as follows:

2 inch Brewers Hardware RIMS tube
2200W Keg King element - SS type from Melbourne Australia
Inlet and outlet are 1/2 inch barbs
Flow measuring device that shuts off the RIMS element if low flow occurs
I have very good flow in the system
Thermowell is located about 1 inch from the element
- I have a 2 inch thermowell with a 3 inch probe, loacted at the top of the tube. This results in just under 1 inch of the back end of the probe sticking out...don't think this would be a issue?

The wort just seems to fry on the element, no matter how fast the wort is flowing over it. Without the knowledge that people do this currently, it would lead me to believe that there is no way an element can come into direct contact with wort...but people use RIMS all the time! I thought that maybe the element is too powerful but 2200W isn't that high and many people use this element in RIMS tubes.

I am at a complete loss as to why this isn't working. If one of you experienced RIMS brewers could help me out it would be greatly greatly appricated.

Thanks guys!
bergerrings
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Re: RIM's element burning

Post by bergerrings »

I thought that possibly my method of controlling the RIMS wasn't very good, but with high flow rates the element should be able to be at full power and not cause scorching...correct? For reference, this occurs well below hot break temps...
disco stu
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Re: RIM's element burning

Post by disco stu »

Hi,
I was going to buy the kegking element but was unsure whether it was the same thread to fit with the brewers hardware rims tube.(im also from aus). I really like the look of the kegking elements. I bought a few camco elements from amazon (240v x 2000, 2400, and 3600w) I had to do a bit of bending to get the to fit inside the tube.
I used the rims tube for 2 pale ales and the element looked fine when i dismantled after each brew. However for my third beer I did a hefe and it burnt onto the rims tube. I did have about 60% wheat and im led to believe that the high protein mash of a wheat makes it very susceptible to scorching. This was with the 3600w element and I was worried that I couldn't get it completely clean enough to stop burn and build up again next brew, so I am now using my 2400w element.
What is the highest temp your rims tube gets to during a mash?

I have been doing a bit of researching about low watt and high watt density of elements. I am using lwd as its supposed to reduce scorching? not sure what the keg king element is but its looks like there is a fair bit of surface area which should make it lwd? maybe someone else can clarify whether surface area and wattage determines lwd or hwd?
bergerrings
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Re: RIM's element burning

Post by bergerrings »

I would assume that they are LWD as 2200W isn't heaps and it does have a reasonable surface area. I went and had a chat with Kee at KegKing and they use their RIMS tube (very similar to Brewers Hardware) coupled with their element and they don't have any problem with scorching...so I'm really stumped.
I am going to do some rigorous testing with sugar solutions and hopefully this will help with find the problem. As it stands at the moment though, RIMS just seems too potentially problematic. With my old HERMS you could brew anything with zero possibility of scorching...it would just take ages! I may in the end revert back to it and try and speed it up somehow.
Backyard Brewer
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Re: RIM's element burning

Post by Backyard Brewer »

This is pretty strange. The only time I've had customers report back scorching is if the element contacts the tube, seems to create a hot spot, and a partially flooded tube. A customer was describing what you are; scorching in almost every circumstance. In his configuration, he had the tube horizontal and the I/O also horizontal rather than coming in/out the top. As a result, the tube was only just over half flooded, not keeping the element completely submerged and the wort was scorching on the liquid/air interface. That doesn't sound like your situation though.
bergerrings
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Re: RIM's element burning

Post by bergerrings »

As far as I can tell the tube is fully flooded and the element doesn't touch the walls so yeah, those two are not the problem. I was even contemplating purchasing a sight glass just so that I could see when it was burning.

At the time I was using the PID for the control method. Do you think using Duty Cycle could be a possible way to bring the heat down on the element? Maybe 5 seconds on and 5 seconds off? Would cycling the heating element every 5 seconds be bad for the element?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Damo
don.fief@comcast.net
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Re: RIM's element burning

Post by don.fief@comcast.net »

I have also had scorching problems. I am using a Rheem 120v 2000W element, (High Watt Density), and the Brewers Hardware tube. Pretty frustrating. I have only brewed with it 4 times, and each time have had the problem to some degree. The first time was REALLY bad, because I tried to raise the temp of the mash from 95 to 170 for various steps, and mash out. The next times I just tried to maintain the temp at the mash point and not get fancy. Still an issue. I have just used my BCS for monitoring the temps the last few times I have brewed, and not used the RIMS. I would really like to solve this problem. I have too much invested in the system not to use it...
bergerrings
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Re: RIM's element burning

Post by bergerrings »

Hey mate,

I too was frustrated with my RIMS tube and ended up changing my system in a big way. No matter what I tried my element always burnt to some some degree or another. Even if I could have ever got it to work perfectly, a slight accident would cause it to burn so I gave up trying to make it 'work' and took another approach. I now have the RIMS tube connected directly to a shell and tube heat exchanger. The heating fluid flows from the HLT (with an element in it too) down to a pump and then through the RIMS tube and then directly into the shell side of the exchanger. The wort flows through the tube side. Normally you probably wouldn't need to use a rims tube as well as a hlt but I had already shelled out the cash for the rims so I had to figure out a way to use it still.

This is probably overkill but I prefer to design things that are inherently safe and just generally better. Before I changed to RIMS I originally had the old coil in the HLT (classic HERMS) setup but there was too much restriction in the coil and the HLT water was stagnant with both equating to painfully slow temperature ramps.
My advice would be to move away from the RIMS for heating your wort as they are prone to disasters. You could use a standard plate heat exchanger but you just have to be careful as they can block easily. Also, insulate you mash tun! For small systems the ratio of surface area to volume is quite large so you will loose heaps of heat. Every bit of energy you save will save you both time and money.

I saw one of your posts mentioning that you have had stuck mashes, is this when using wheat? What sort of false bottom are you using? Do you run a beta glucanase rest (for unmalted wheat, oats, etc) ?
One other thing to check is your mill gap. I forget what I changed it to but do a look around on the net, buy a feeler gauge and set it correctly...it made a massive difference.

There is nothing worse than becoming disenchanted with your brewing but it's fantastic when you start finding solutions. Hope something from the above helps!
clearwaterbrewer
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Re: RIM's element burning

Post by clearwaterbrewer »

I have little to no problems burning mash in my rims tube (unless I make a mistake)

I am using a 4500W LWD element, and keep the max power at 50%..
rims tube is custom made 1.5" tube 13" long, open ended 1.5" TC straight out bottom, 1" NPS fitting for element straight out top, 1" TC ferrule out side at top as close as I can get it..
RIMS tube is mounted vertical with pump below and restricting valve before going back to MLT
temps sensor is in outlet port, it is physically less than 1" from element.
sankey MLT with full 15" false bottom

The process is important too!
- have all valves closed when mashing in, add water, add grain while stirring.
- disconnect hose before pump and place end into clean bucket (dusty grain bucket is ideal) and open MLT drain fully and allow a gallon or so to run, will be clear of grain, close valve.
- reconnect hose to pump, open MLT drain valve.
- open RIMS return valve to let air bleed out and prime pump, *close valve*
- turn on rims pump, *slowly* open RIMS valve to get optimum flow without sticking mash
- after a minute of flow and you are certain you will not stick mash, apply power to your element controller.
- do not let wort go over your desired mash temp, otherwise your mash temp is really not your mash temp!

sit back while your mash stays waiting 1/10 of a degree for 60 minutes then ramps quickly to 170 and sounds the alarm after mash out...
proof of what I just said:
Image

I do plan on integrating a low pressure switch like used on a Hot Tub heating tube that will not allow the element to fire without pressure in the tube(with a restricted, but not closed output, pressure indicates flow)



Happy brewing!

-mike


Where is your control temperature taken? If you are heating a RIMS element but monitoring the mash temp or inlet temp, you are wrong, wrong, wrong... you HAVE to measure the outlet temp of the RIMS tube or you will scorch your wort or overshoot your temp...
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