burner ignition issues

[banjolawyer]

I'm struggling to choose between 2 types of burners and 2 types of ignition methods.

Banjo Burner vs. a multi-jet burner
and
Standing Pilot vs. Direct Spark Electronic Ignition

My preference was the banjo burner because it is quiet and has had better reviews among homebrewers. However, I was at a friends house this weekend who got one for Christmas, and I concluded really quickly that this type of burner probably wouldn't work in an automated system, but correct me if I'm wrong. The problem I saw with it, is that he had to turn the gas down really low when lighting it, and carefully wait on the small flame to spread around the burner before being able to turn the gas up to the level he wanted it. If he tried to light it with the gas turned up, it wouldn't light at all. And if he turned the gas up too quickly, parts of the burner wouldn't light. So, my thought is that with an electronically controlled valve, that is either on or off, with gas coming through either all or nothing, this burner is not a good match with electronically controlled gas valves.

To those of you who use the multi-jet burners, do they light up all at once, or do you have to control the flow of the gas until it is fully lit, similar to the banjo burner?

Also, with respect to standing pilot vs. direct spark, have any of you using the standing pilot had any problems with the pilot going out? Does anyone use direct spark, and if so, have you experienced any problems with cycling time?

[gbrewer]

Banjolawyer,

I currently use a 24 volt gas valve converted to propane. With this system, I use a pilot burner and thermocouple. The pilot burner is lit close to the beginning of my brew session and I haven't had an issue with it blowing out. My concern in using an electronic ignition was the time delay that it takes to ignite. I may not be that much of a difference but when I listen to my furnace, it takes around 4 seconds of clicking prior to hearing the burner ignite. With the standing pilot, I am able to get +-1 degree of temperature control and it lites the burner instantly.

On a positive note with the electronic ignition, there is no flame when it is off. The standing pilot is always lit and always putting out a small amount of heat. This becomes a concern to me when having a dry MT containing grains over the burner (prior to strike) I don't want the grains to scorch in the least bit. I overcome this by only applying flame to the pilot just prior to strike. (It remains lit during the rest of the process)

I use a jet burner with my pilot burner. When the burner ignites, it starts on one side and quickly moves around to the other. It does not ignite near as quick when there is no kettle over top of the burner (if you were testing it out, you would notice this). I think the kettle helps spread the flame around. I would assume that you would only be using the system with a kettle of some sort over the burner so it most likely would not be an issue.

I find it interesting that you are comparing the jet burner to the banjo burner. I currently have a cast iron Banjo Burner sitting next to me in a box that I just received. I am going to build a new brewing sculpture and plan on testing this burner in place of one of the jet burners. I am interested in seeing how it works with the standing pilot. I don't think I will have the same issues you describe since my flame will be burning prior to any gas being released from the Banjo Burner.

One thing I can tell you with Gas valves is they are sensitive to using the proper gas pressure rating from the propane side. Make sure you match the regulator PSI to the gas valve input PSI or have some sort of adjustment to handle this.

[banjolawyer]

Thanks for the feedback. When I was experimenting with my friend's banjo burner, I had a lighter held up to the burner prior to turning any gas on, the same way a standing pilot flame would be.

So far, I've been focusing on the following Honeywell products:
Electronic Ignition Gas Valve (VR8345M4302)
Direct Spark Ignition Control Module (S87B1008)
Igniter/Sensor (Q347A1004)

And I'd planned to buy a set this week, but I'm getting skittish.

What parts are you using?

[banjolawyer]

Here's the links to gbrewer's parts.

http://forum.embeddedcontrolconcepts.co ... ywell#p449
http://forum.embeddedcontrolconcepts.co ... ywell#p891

[gbrewer]

Banjolawyer,

Here are the part numbers from the grainger.com website. There are cheaper sources out there but you can see what parts went into it.

4E770 - 24v 190K BTU Gas Valve
2E166 - Thermocouple 18"
1D287 - Pilot tipk, 8-L, P-F
5AU59 - Pilot Tubing 60"
6WU91 - 24v Transformer

I would also look at some of the White-Rodgers gas valves if you aren't set on Honeywell.

[RonRock]

Here is a link to a good thread.


http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/gas-tem ... es-116632/

This discussed the Honeywell setup. I used 3 of the Honeywell ignition boxes, 1 Honeywell gas valve, and 2 Robertshaw gas valves. I met a guy that had some new old stock on the shelf and got a good price, that is why the assortment of parts. But they are all functionally the same. I will say that in my application I like the Robertshaw gas valve. Simply because the pilot tube comes out on the side next too the gas line. The Honeywell comes out the top and has to have a 90* bend so that it can be ran with the gas line. Not a "big deal" just a cleaner look.

I'm still in construction so can't comment on how these systems work yet. I went with 3 Hurricane burners. Good luck with the build. There are many different opinions on what is "best."

Did you have a kettle on the burner while testing? Gbrewer mentioned this but I have not seen how you did your test. I have also read where someone made a collector in the center of their burner to help ignite the gas. They made a triangle shape for a base (looked about 1 inch tall) and put a circular disk on top like a mushroom. The disk collects gas and helps it light.

[banjolawyer]

Yes, the hurricane burner I was observing did have a kettle above it. My recollection was that it took my buddy about 10 seconds to get all the Hurricane burner orifices burning correctly at a low rate before he was able to turn the gas up. He's out of town right now, but I'll try to take a video and post it when he gets back.

Yesterday, I ordered (i) the Honeywell VR8300A4516 valve, (ii) the Honeywell Q314A4586 pilot and (iii) a 32 jet propane burner. I'm going to try to rig up this single set for testing prior to buying additional sets and installing in the frame.

[timweber]

Wow I am really interested to hear your feed back on this. I almost pulled the trigger on the same exact set up last week. I will be using this only for step mashing, and won't need the tight control of a brutus though. I have a RIMS for that. I am looking for the most even heat and the least amount of scorching. Also, the honeywell controller needs to work with it. Let me know what you think!

[timweber]

That's also a lot cheeper than I expected. Is that all the equipment you need to automate a burner? On HBT he mentioned that you need the S8610U Intermittent Pilot Module which is like $250. Do you already have this or will the BCS handle that function?

[banjolawyer]

I believe the valve with intermittent pilot, hot surface and direct spark capabilities is in the VR8345 line, and those valve do require a separate control module.

This one is standing pilot and doesn't require the separate control module. BCS would control it.