Help with RIMS mash process

Describe your system and processes, and post your config file.
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Hardwood_Brewer
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Help with RIMS mash process

Post by Hardwood_Brewer » Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:38 pm

Hey Brew Enthusiasts,

I have been limping along for about a year with some pretty horrible process files. Since I have a few days before my next brew, I'm wondering if those of you with RIMS systems would please help me clean them up.

I'm trying to write a cleaner step mash process from
MASH IN to FIRST STEP (140 degrees)
FIRST STEP HOLD (30 min.)
RAMP to SECOND STEP (140 to 155)
SECOND STEP HOLD (30 min.)
RAMP to MASH OUT (170)

Several things have foiled my attempts to get this right, not the least of which is my terrible programming skills.

A few issues that have come to light:

I have a 30a 220v RIMS element on a mechanical relay. It works well when raising temperatures quickly for mash in but when it cycles on to raise the temp in the mash tun to a set point, it gets so hot that it nearly denatures the wort. The temperature differential between the mash tun and RIMS tube fluctuates wildly, even with high flow through the RIMS. It seems like RAMP mode could take care of this by ramping the temperature up slowly, so I'm wondering how other brewers have addressed this issue: especially those with mechanical relays not SSR's. How long would a safe ramp up time be?

I have tried writing a process using the temp probe in the RIMS tube instead of the mash tun, but it seems like the mash tun always lags at least five degrees behind the RIMS. I'm wondering if insulating the mash tun might help.

Is there a way to write a program which can regulate the temperature differential between two probes on BCS? I'm not sure what the programming would look like, but I'd like to make sure that the RIMS temp never jumps past 158 or so.

Lastly, is there a way to program a timer in the BCS that is not killed by the ALL STOP command? In the panic of a stuck mash or cavitated pump, I've accidentally hit ALL STOP instead of simply pausing the process. After such a stupid overreaction, is there any way to resume a process in the middle of a state--say a count down timer?

Thanks for any help in untangling this mess!

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oakbarn
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Re: Help with RIMS mash process

Post by oakbarn » Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:08 pm

All Stop Kills All Timers. I know of no way around this.

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oakbarn
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Re: Help with RIMS mash process

Post by oakbarn » Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:12 pm

SSRs can make minute corrections. You can get them for about $12. I have found that you need to set the Element in my Herms rather than the MLT. There is about a 4 degree delta, but since I know that, I set 156 on the HERMS if I want 152 on the MLT. I have found trying to control the HERMS with the MLT probe is not a good idea. I would assume the same is true for a RIMs

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Broph
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Re: Help with RIMS mash process

Post by Broph » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:52 am

Hardwood_Brewer wrote:Hey Brew Enthusiasts,

I have been limping along for about a year with some pretty horrible process files. Since I have a few days before my next brew, I'm wondering if those of you with RIMS systems would please help me clean them up.

I'm trying to write a cleaner step mash process from
MASH IN to FIRST STEP (140 degrees)
FIRST STEP HOLD (30 min.)
RAMP to SECOND STEP (140 to 155)
SECOND STEP HOLD (30 min.)
RAMP to MASH OUT (170)

Several things have foiled my attempts to get this right, not the least of which is my terrible programming skills.

A few issues that have come to light:

I have a 30a 220v RIMS element on a mechanical relay. It works well when raising temperatures quickly for mash in but when it cycles on to raise the temp in the mash tun to a set point, it gets so hot that it nearly denatures the wort. The temperature differential between the mash tun and RIMS tube fluctuates wildly, even with high flow through the RIMS. It seems like RAMP mode could take care of this by ramping the temperature up slowly, so I'm wondering how other brewers have addressed this issue: especially those with mechanical relays not SSR's. How long would a safe ramp up time be?

I have tried writing a process using the temp probe in the RIMS tube instead of the mash tun, but it seems like the mash tun always lags at least five degrees behind the RIMS. I'm wondering if insulating the mash tun might help.

Is there a way to write a program which can regulate the temperature differential between two probes on BCS? I'm not sure what the programming would look like, but I'd like to make sure that the RIMS temp never jumps past 158 or so.

Lastly, is there a way to program a timer in the BCS that is not killed by the ALL STOP command? In the panic of a stuck mash or cavitated pump, I've accidentally hit ALL STOP instead of simply pausing the process. After such a stupid overreaction, is there any way to resume a process in the middle of a state--say a count down timer?

Thanks for any help in untangling this mess!
What are your exit conditions in your RIM's Process states? With each Process you have several states. For the process that I use to control my RIMS, the first state is used to turn on the recirculation pump and to heat the RIMS module to the temperature I set. The exit condition in that state has the RIMS Temp Probe selected and >=156 then go to state 2 . State 2 of the RIMS process would regulate the temperature turning on/off as needed.
Thomas Brophy
AleForce Homebrewery

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oakbarn
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Re: Help with RIMS mash process

Post by oakbarn » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:38 am

PID Control or Hysteresis to control the Element? I would think that Hysteresis would be better for a mechanical relay but I have only used SSRs. Do you have the overshoot (>158) when you are controlling the Rims Element by the Rims Probe?
I was worried about my wort being in contact with an Element so I went to a Modified type HERMS system. I use a Chillzilla and circulate the Wort in the Inner Tube and hot water in the Outer Tube. This does require a small HLT and Pump for the Hot Water and a second Pump for my MLT. I get good control (again with an SSR). I have measured my overshoot and it is less than 1 degree F. I do control the Hot Water Temperature by a Probe in the HLT and when I tried to Control with a Probe in the MLT, It was always chasing a dog :D .

clearwaterbrewer
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Re: Help with RIMS mash process

Post by clearwaterbrewer » Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:51 am

i do not think it is possible to do RIMS properly with a mechanical relay, for a mechanical relay to work, you would need an element of such low watt-density that the element will either be too small to work, too large to put into a rims tube, or a tube so large it holds a significant portion of your mash volume.

An SSR on the PID output of the BCS can tailor the power sent to the RIMS tube to raise your mash liquid flowing through it to an exact mash temp without exceeding that temp, and with even 1GPM flow, can have a 15 gallon mash to within .1 degree of the set temp... it works that good... and you can get away from 'step mashes, and go to a ramp mash, the enzymes don't care!


*** note - for best results: place the PID temp sensor directly at the end of the RIMS element and restrict the flow AFTER the element and sensor... this will ensure an accurate temp, and place slight pressure on the fluid in the RIMS tube, stopping spot boiling,

brewworx
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Re: Help with RIMS mash process

Post by brewworx » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:02 pm

Lemme throw this in the mix....

We've been using a HERMs system for several years with highly repeatable results. The thing we got hung up on in the early days was always MASH temp.
The important thing to remember is, the HOTTEST point in your system is the conversion point. With the temp probe on the OUT of the tube or coil, you're at the hottest point in the loop. The mash kettle will be a bit less than that, sure- but as you're circulating constantly you get a pretty good balance. In the 1bbl system, we get 1.5f temp rise/min about with 25' of 3/8" copper immersed in 3g water heated with a SSR driven PID at 5500w and a 7gpm flow rate

In a larger 3.5bbl system, I imagine something like 8g and 11Kw with TWO coils 25' of 5/8" copper and a pair of 15gpm pumps...or something like that!

I'll let you know. I'm gonna try a heat exchanger in my new 3.5bbl system :)

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